Welcome To The Burn

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Welcome back to another episode of The Burn. I am Ben Newman, and you know how we do this every single week. We're gonna bring you a story from an athlete, an entertainer, a celebrity, somebody from the business world who helps us understand that why and purpose is not enough. It's that underlying burn that ignites your why and purpose and causes you to show up on the days that you don't feel like it, and especially after you win. Today's guest is a very, very special guest. Everybody will know him. They will know his name from his unbelievable book, Never Split the Difference, which has sold over seven million copies. You see him all over the internet, you've seen him all over TV, and he everybody knows who he is. And being the former lead international FBI hostage negotiator, I have been excited for quite some time. He didn't know this, for us to be able to spend this time together. And for you to not only learn the amazing things about how the mind works and how negotiation works and how maybe it's gonna get you off of that sideline because maybe you've been negotiating too much with yourself to not do the things you need to do. I think you're gonna find that you know there's a unique community that Chris has built that is gonna

Meeting Chris Voss

SPEAKER_01 1:30

give you an opportunity to continue to do the things past this conversation to be able to continue to win negotiations and to win in life. So, Chris, I've been waiting a long time to do this. Welcome to the burn.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Thank you very much. Happy to be here. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Well, let's uh let's start with your burn, your fire, your passion. You know, to to have the success that you've had before the current success, but you know, to become the FBI lead international hostage negotiator for our country, you gotta have some burn, some fire, some discipline. Where did that come from

Life As An Adventure

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for you?

SPEAKER_00 2:11

I don't know. I I think it was oh I've always looked at life as an adventure, you know, and naturally I've enjoyed the challenge of it. I saw a bumper sticker a long time ago. It said, what's the difference between adventure and ordeal and its attitude? And I've always just you know looked at life as an adventure and that it could, you know, who knows what's around the next corner. Let's go around the corner and find out. And it's just been a lot of fun the whole way.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

And it's it's taken you on uh some unique adventures in your life having a burn like that and me and Will and make things happen as well. That's crazy, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Yeah, you know, and the nice thing about doing our international work when I was doing it, uh, you know, I was always in the third world, the developing world, and to me it was fascinating. Um I had one of my first trips internationally, one of the agents I was working with said, you know, you're gonna find the expat commer community, you know, the people from other countries, the expat community, is gonna be made up of missionaries, mercenaries, and misfits. And I remember thinking, like, wow, there's a part of me that resonates with each one of those descriptions. This is gonna be fun. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 3:24

I I can I can only imagine uh probably probably a lot of the stories that you can't tell are uh some of the ones that are that are most amazing. But I I know through your book and your lessons, if we understand and pay attention, the the things that allowed you to understand what to do in those situations or ways that you're now helping people today. How do you let let's actually let let's do this before we talk about uh the the people on the sidelines? When

Make Them Feel Understood

SPEAKER_01 3:53

you think about negotiation, we have so many leaders from head coaches of pick a sport that that are big followers of the burn to leaders of organizations. What do you think are some of the most important things that leaders need to focus on when it comes to negotiation?

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Wow. Um, you know, understanding how it looks to the other side, or understanding how to get the the point across the other side. You know, Jim Camp said a long time ago, he wrote the book uh Start with No back in 2002, and Camp was also a football coach at one point in time. He was a football coach, he was a uh salesman, he was an Air Force fighter pilot. He said, You can't tell anybody anything. What does that mean? You gotta get them to feel it. You gotta get them to uh uh uh under feel that you understand them. That's the first thing to open up up somebody's mind. Um and it's like I know this is hard for you, or uh I know Pat Riley when he was coaching in Knicks, he said you need to get the point across to somebody in a way that they can feel it. And so the challenge is is getting getting people to feel it. And typically if it's been a challenge for you to figure it out, you're probably a better coach. And if you've spent time thinking about getting it, it probably makes you a better coach. If it's been a struggle for you, you know the uh uh historically the best coaches in any sport were not the best players. It were the guys that had to work the hardest to figure it out. It didn't it didn't come to him naturally. Um Steve Kerr uh with the Golden State Warriors, like he was a sixth man. Phil Jackson uh was a sixth man. He didn't even start for the Knicks. Now it was a championship team, so he probably would have started for other teams.

SPEAKER_01 5:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

But you know, the guys, the guys that were loved figuring it out, I think. And then I suppose remembering that it's hard for others to figure it out too, and you can't just tell them once and expect them to get it. I think that's probably what makes a great leader.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Yeah, I think uh another great example there is uh, you know, because you you you did pick a couple of coaches who played and did win championships, but you're right. I mean, they were six men, they were never the the main individual. But look at an Eric Spoolstra with the Miami Heat. I mean, he was the video guy cutting up videos for the Miami Heat's organization, and now one of the most respected, you know, he'll be a Hall of Fame coach, multiple championships. I think a lot of that comes, and this is a a unique place to go with the conversation, you know, when you really slow down or you get meticulous in breaking down film, things of that nature, you know, you really end up finding details. And those details reveal a lot. And I've always found in our coaching, my work with Coach Saban and Coach Kleiman and winning championships at those levels, that when players take ownership, personal ownership to the details, that's when the difference is made.

Pressure Proofing Through Rehearsal

SPEAKER_01 6:55

What do you think are the most important things when it comes to a pressure situation? You're in the heat of the game, it's in pressure, those tough conversations in the heat. Do you believe that it's important that those those players have to take ownership in order to perform under pressure?

SPEAKER_00 7:12

Well, to to they take ownership, and and the thing that you're referring to all the time is to perform under pressure, you have to have imagined in advance. You you'd have to you practiced on an empty basketball court, but you're imagining a hand in your face, you imagine whatever the sporting field is, all these distractions. And then you're imagining yourself performing. Now, in a negotiation, a high-pressure negotiation, you have to have rehearsed it in your mind in advance properly. Now, most people, when they're going back over conversations they've had in the past, they rehearse it improperly. Like, here's what I wish I would have said to that jerk to put him in his place. You know, I wish I'd have said, oh, so you're admitting you're an idiot. You know. You're rehearsing it improperly. And when we're coaching people in negotiations, and having them practice, you know, you mentioned our negotiation community. That's what guys get get their practice in. You know, the greats practiced. Tiger Woods practiced his ass off. Spent far more team on a practice tease, courses, fairways, than he ever spent in in tournaments, which is why he won tournaments. You gotta get your practice in with people that know what they're doing, and then you have to imagine yourself doing it well. You have to imagine in a negotiation responding with a calm voice, somebody screaming at you calling your names. You gotta imagine saying it calmly, it sounds like you're under a lot of pressure. Instead of, hey motherfucker, how dare you talk to me? Don't you know who I am? Right. You know, instead you imagine with a calm voice, you know, the the deactivating label. And in your head, until you know it works, you imagine the other person still uh yelling at you. But if you imagine yourself doing it right despite the pressure, then number one, when the pressure's on, you perform to the level of your preparation. And secondarily, more often than not, which is the winning percentage you need, it works.

SPEAKER_01 9:36

And then you get used to that happening. This

Partner Spotlight Q Logics

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episode of The Burn is brought to you by our dear friends and partners at Q Logics. Now you know I don't co-sign things I don't believe in, and I believe in John Chirono and the team at Q Logics. He's built multiple nine-figure businesses, real integrity, real character, the kind of guy you want in your corner. But here's what happened all that expertise, all that knowledge, it was just his. Locked in his head, his decisions, his team, you couldn't access it. So John created Q-Logics. He basically said, How do I make everything I've built available to people who actually need it? Here's what that looks like. Q-Logic helps you see the blind spots in your business, the gaps you don't even know you have. You don't know what you don't know. They're your tour guide through that. Okay. Q Logics helps you build systems that make your business work better or they ask better questions so you're approaching it in the most effective way. And Q Logic has access to a network of businesses and resources, real connections, real synergies that can accelerate what you're building. Okay. If any of that resonates, go to Q-Hyphen Logics, L-O-G-I-X.com forward slash Ben. Fill out a form. Their team will research your situation personally, then they'll tell you straight can they actually help? Thank you to our friends and partners at Q Logics. Make sure you find out more about Q Logics and your opportunity to win more with them today. You

Coaching And The Accountability Mirror

SPEAKER_01 11:02

know, you bring up uh something really interesting. Uh for me, you know, I have two coaches. One of my coaches, she's been my coach for the last 20 years. And, you know, another one of my coaches is 10 years younger than me, and we, you know, we tend to coach each other. And I believe that to really be great, we have to be able to look at that mirror of accountability and say, there's areas I need to work on. It's one of the things I love, and when you're speaking of your community, to specifically say we are going to practice on negotiation. And that's why a lot of times people say, why do you bring people on your show that have other communities and other offerings and other coaching opportunities? It's because look, I am not the former FBI lead international negotiator. It's Chris Voss. And so, like, I believe that people, you have to remain open to all of the coaching, all the ways that we can improve. Otherwise, you're never going to get better. So please, everybody, I want you to, with what we're going to put in the notes, the opportunities for you to become more familiar with Chris's community. We're going to make it easy for you. I want you guys to be able to do that because just if one of you that's listening, hundreds of you that are listening, where in some capacity, whether it's our standard elite mastermind or uncommon live, we're working in a coaching capacity, it's probably not enough. There's areas that you have to be attacking. Um, and and one of the areas where we've been working, but I'd love to hear it from you, I I I've I've just been challenging people to be honest with themselves about the negotiations, not with other people, but they're having with themselves to not do what they need to do. Why is that so important during these times when whether it be media or politics, people seem conflicted, they don't want to take action. How do they win that game with their mind or that negotiation with themselves, Chris?

The Daily Fight With Your Mind

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Yeah, that's the ongoing challenge. I deal with that. So the this uh you're always gonna be the greatest negotiator against yourself. You always. The self-defeating behavior is very hard. And avoiding it is very much like hygiene. You know, you gotta do it every day. Did you brush your teeth this morning? Yeah. Well, but wait a minute. Didn't you brush your teeth last night and yesterday morning? Yeah, you gotta keep at it. So the negotiation with yourself is something that it has to be part of your daily practice. Now it can be a part of a daily practice in small ways. The absolute best way to get um all to have the most consistent good outcomes is to be playful, be in a positive state of mind. I'm listening to the guy that invented open claw, he's on Lex Friedman the other day, and uh he says it's hard to compete with somebody who's just there to have fun. So the first thing is if you can turn it into uh an endeavor where you disengage from the outcome and you're more engaged in a process, and the process is fun, you're playful, you're thirty-one percent smarter in a positive frame of mind. You've deactivated the part of your brain that's defeating you. The fear centers, the amygdala. That's what defeats you. Your natural-born human wiring, the natural-born human wiring is designed to be negative. The caveman wiring that we've inherited, the pessimistic caveman survived. When we had to worry about whether or not we're gonna get eaten by a saber-toothed tiger, those guys survived. When we had to worry about do I, do I do I go in this cave that nobody's ever been in to sleep, or do I climb up this tree and sleep? Well, the fearful approach is maybe I climb the tree because I don't know what's in that cave. Now, we've got that natural-born wiring in our head, so there's nothing wrong with you if your default is negative. It's because you're human. Because you're human, to win the negotiation with yourself, to take action, is to first of all stay in a positive frame of mind. I said earlier, you know, if if life's an adventure, then you're more likely to survive. You're more likely to perform at a higher level because an adventure isn't is fun. So the first real battle is, and it's an it's a daily battle. I mean, and it's easier to be optimistic in the morning than it is in the afternoon.

SPEAKER_01 15:30

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

So what do you got to do through the course of the day to maintain your positive nature for the tough slog in the afternoon? If you're just aware that it's there and it's a and you're aware that you can affect it, you begin to win the negotiation with yourself.

SPEAKER_01 15:47

Now, let me take the other side of the negotiation with yourself. This is

Winning After You Win

SPEAKER_01 15:51

this is my absolute favorite, Chris. Uh, you know, I've been blessed to work with so many champions in in business and in sports. And one of the things that I love, I'm sure you love working with winners as well, but also helping people win who have had challenges with it. I love the question: how do you show up after you win? That's a whole nother negotiation. Once you start to win, you have another negotiation. I could take the easy way, I don't have to do it the way I once did it. I love how you spoke of the process. How important is it for people to remain on the course of the process after they win so that a whole new level of negotiation to stop doing the things that cause winning, that they don't take themselves down that path.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

Yeah, that's that's probably uh the most critical issue. You you you discover a process, now you're continually refining the process. But that doesn't mean you abandon it or forget about what got you here. You you want to you want to continuous improvement is the goal versus perfection, and I'll mention Tiger Woods again. He'd win a tournament and they'd want to see how self-congratulatory was. You know, it must feel great to win a master's. And his answer would be like, well, yeah, but I can always get better. So you stick to the process and continuous improvement as opposed to abandoning it entirely. First of all, you gotta uh accept that your process is gonna get you there, and you lean into it, and then the more you do it, the more you refine it, and the more you get another competitive advantage here or another uh delight in uh superior execution there, but you never abandon the process.

SPEAKER_01 17:44

All right, I'm gonna I'm gonna put you on the spot, but I think I already know what the the answer is. How many times did you go into a critical negotiation unprepared and not following the process that you knew was gonna make you successful in that negotiation?

SPEAKER_00 18:02

The only time, and I and I can't think of any bit any any hostage cases that uh I I walked in where I forgot about the process. I will tell you that in business negotiations, and I look at negotiations constantly throughout the course of the day. Little negotiations here and there, prepping here and there. When

The Hotel Upgrade Reality Check

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we first uh when we first came out of the pandemic, uh we have a process for maximizing the opportunity for room upgrades in hotels. And it's a multi-step process. You know, to get an upgrade in a hotel, it's only there's only there's really only two issues. Number one, it's an inventory issue. Do they have the room? Can they give you the suite? Do they have it in the first place? Can they safely give it to you the number of nights that you want it? If they got three available suites and you want it for one night, it's a it's an easy one. If they got three available suites and you want it for four nights, that's a little bit tougher. They can't they can't quite do that. So understand it's an inventory issue. Secondarily, do they feel like it? It doesn't matter if you got points, it doesn't matter if you're good looking, it doesn't matter if you're you know, do do they feel like it? And then secondarily, if when you make the ask, how does it make them if you and they turn you down, how does that set you up for the next ask? Because there's always a second ask. So I remember the first time I'm back in a hotel after not having been in hotels for months because of the pandemic, and I'm out of practice. And I walk in and I'm tired and I just don't feel like it, and I blow it. I mean, I just don't get it anywhere. I don't get nothing. All I got was annoyance from the hotel clerk. Because I was out of practice. I hadn't been doing it for a while. I was tired, I didn't feel like it. My brain defeated me. I'm like, ah, they're probably not gonna do it. See, that's what we do. You say, ah, why do I got to go through all this trouble? They're probably not gonna do it anyway. And I went in and I half-assed it and confirmed that when you half-ass something, it ain't gonna happen. And I confirmed that, see, they they didn't do it. Well, they did do it because I was out of practice. So that that has happened to me. I've allowed myself to be defeated by my attitude. And then I don't really know what the outcome would have been.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

I love it. I love it. Tell us a little bit more before uh we wrap up, and I have one more uh one more question for you. Tell

Why The Negotiation Community Works

SPEAKER_01 20:46

us a little bit more about the negotiation community. I I think it's, as I mentioned, it's the most critically important thing that you can do to attack areas where you need to develop. Why is the negotiation community that you built so important for people to learn and grow and to become better in terms of growing their businesses and negotiation in life?

SPEAKER_00 21:06

Well, to start with, you need somebody that is gonna practice with you with the methodology, as opposed to you're trying a new set of skills and uh you're trying with somebody that doesn't know the black swan method, and they're gonna like, yeah, you know, I don't think that's gonna work. You know, don't do that. Well, you don't need that defeating behavior, the naysayers who don't know what they're talking about. So you need to be in an environment where people are buying into the philosophy based on experience, they already know it works. Now, the other cool thing about it is now you can find people that are doing what you do for a living and you can practice in role specific stuff. Our training is applying the terms to human beings, and we don't often if we get we got 15 to 50 people in on the training, everybody's got a slightly different nuance on their job. One guy's a Lawyer, another guy's a procurement officer, another guy's in sales, another person's a doctor, the entrepreneur mindset, another person is selling widgets. What the you're not going to get practice on the specific terminology in a general negotiation training session. In the community, you see seeking people out there that doing what you do for a living. One of our top clients, guy spends a lot of money on us. The community is free. He's in the community practicing twice a week with lawyers. He's a defense attorney. He loves it. He has the best time. He's in there practicing as much because he loves the skills and they make him happy and he just enjoys the hell out of them. But he also knows that a small erosion in his skills is going to cost him a client, which could be $20,000 to what's a lifetime of uh value of a client? $40,000. A hell of a lot more than the training would ever cost him. So he's in there practicing because it's fun, and secondarily, because it helps make him more money.

SPEAKER_01 23:03

I love it. Final question, and once again, just for everybody, we're going to make sure that it is as easy as can be for you to learn more about uh the community. Also have a link to never split the difference in all the different ways you can continue to learn and stay connected with Chris. Final question I have. So I just, as I had mentioned, I'd been very much looking forward to this opportunity to spend this time together. But the final question I have: when people get nervous, they really feel that pressure. They're walking into the moment. What's the best advice you can share with somebody to control your mind, to bring calm, to do the job? Whether you're stepping onto a field for your game, whether you're stepping into a boardroom for that business negotiation, what's the best thing to calm that mind before the negotiation begins?

SPEAKER_00 23:56

There's a

Gratitude To Stay Calm

SPEAKER_00 23:57

couple of mental attributes that'll make you emotionally bulletproof. And one of them is gratitude. And something silly is look, I'm lucky to be here at all. I remember a couple of months ago I'm watching Instagram video clips, and Aaron Donald is pacing a field on a Rams game. And I don't know what happened just beforehand, but he probably got beat really badly. He probably really screwed up. And he's mic'd up and he's pacing a field and he's saying to himself, live in a dream. Live in a dream. Living a dream. And I'm sure he'd turn around and then just shellacked somebody on the very next. But when he screwed up, and I'm speculating that it was a screw up, um, because if if he'd have done something great, he'd been jumping up and down, going like, yeah, that's right, MFR, you know, he'd have been celebrating somebody's face. So he pacing back and forth in a moment of gratitude, unless it was right after he screwed up. And he's somebody coached him, gratitude will get you back in a moment so that you will perform for the next moment that's coming at you.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

Love it. Absolutely love it. I I encourage everybody to not only try that, that next time that you feel that pressure. And one of the things teaching mental performance the way that I do, if you focus on that gratitude and you lean in, you heard Chris say earlier the importance of leaning into the process. That's a leaning into that mental process. If you lean in, that means I'm committed to it. If you are saying that act of gratitude and Aaron Donald is hearing the words that are coming out of his mouth, going into his ears, you can't be worried about the fears, the doubts, the uncertainties, the pain, or losing that negotiation. So that is very powerful, Chris. Your work is powerful. Uh, appreciate how you show up in this world and your continued commitment. We're gonna give everybody the opportunity to learn about the community, join the community. And Chris, I can't thank you enough for joining us on The Burn.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

Yeah, my pleasure, man. It's a great conversation. People

Where To Join And Final Words

SPEAKER_00 26:08

can join by going to join.blackswanltd.com. It's that simple.

SPEAKER_01 26:17

It's that simple. Type it in right now, or you can click it right there in the show notes. Chris, we appreciate you. And to each and every single one of you listening, this has been the burn. It's a story every week, giving you the opportunity to connect. Not that why and purpose is not important. It is so important, but you have to understand that underlying burn that ignites why and purpose and causes you to show up when you don't feel like it, but especially after you win. Thank you, Chris Voss, again for joining us on The Burn. And everybody, we will see you next week.